Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Buzzsprout, or follow the podcast on LinkedIn for new episode drops.

In this episode you’ll discover:

• What is a patent? 

• How soon should you invest in patent protection? 

• What you need to know about design patents for digital companies

• What the advantages founders gain from talking to a patent attorney

Keep scrolling for a transcript of this episode.

Key Takeaways

• A patent gives you the right to exclude others from making, using, selling, or importing your invention. It is a defensive measure to make sure that your work is protected. 

• Invest in patent protection for your idea before publicly disclosing it without a confidentiality agreement so that you won’t risk losing your rights. Once you disclose your invention publicly, you’ll have one year to file for a patent. 

• Creating an interesting graphical user interface for an app, for example, can be protected under design patents. That’s a way for companies to protect the user interface for some applications. 

• Anybody can file a provisional application with the PTO, but it’s still more advantageous to talk to a patent attorney since they will make sure that the claims are as broad as possible to cover all possible different iterations. 

Learn more from Carrie and Rebecca: 

Healthcare insights (monthly email) | Telehealth/Virtual Care Mgmt Update (biweekly LinkedIn update)

Website | Carrie on LinkedIn | Rebecca on LinkedIn | NGL on LinkedIn

Learn More

Fish & Richardson Attorneys Author IAM Article "Neglect Begets Opportunity in Femtech IP": https://www.fr.com/insights/thought-leadership/articles/fish-richardson-attorneys-author-iam-article-neglect-begets-opportunity-in-femtech-ip/ 

Protecting Your Femtech IP(Webinar): https://www.fr.com/insights/webinars/protecting-your-femtech-ip/ 

The Basics of Design Patents(Webinar):

https://www.fr.com/insights/webinars/the-basics-of-design-patents/ 

Successful Patent Strategies for Digital Health and Digital Therapeutics(Webinar): 

https://www.fr.com/insights/webinars/successful-patent-strategies-for-digital-health-and-digital-therapeutics/ 

Fish & Richardson: https://www.fr.com/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/giordana-mahn-32832212/ 

Women Of Wearables: https://www.womenofwearables.com/ 

Read the transcript

Announcer (00:01):

You're listening to Decoding Healthcare Innovation with Carrie Nixon and Rebecca Gwilt, A podcast for novel and disruptive healthcare business leaders seeking to transform how we receive and experience healthcare.

Rebecca Gwilt (00:16):

Welcome back to Decoding Healthcare Innovation. I am your co-host, Rebecca Gwilt co-founder and partner at Nixon Gwilt Law, where we help digital health companies understand plan for and launch their products and services in the US market. Among other things. Today I'm looking forward to picking the brain of someone I send my clients to often, but who I rarely get a chance to learn from myself. She is a powerhouse with a background in mechanical engineering and a passion for working with female founders and innovators, which of course we love. Specifically, she helps digital health and FemTech innovators all over the world patent and protect their intellectual property, which is the subject of today's pod. And when she isn't being an IP protector at work, she's advocating for women in technology with international organizations like women of wearables. Super, super excited. I'm fangirling. So for now I will just say welcome, welcome Giordana Mahn to the pod.

Giordana Mahn (01:09):

Thank you so much for having me now, this has been great. I love that I got your invite, so I'm so happy we're doing this.

Rebecca Gwilt (01:15):

Yes, yes. Okay, so first, before we get into some substance, I was reading your bio and prep for our discussion and I was just as a fellow lawyer, just absolutely blown away by the breadth of your pro bono practice. I have such admiration for how much time you obviously devote to causes you believe in, namely at legal advocacy related to reproductive rights and civil rights. Such an important topic right now. I'm interested, is that sort of pro bono work, what led you to develop this sort of expertise around FemTech?

Giordana Mahn (01:48):

No, I wouldn't say that. I think that in law school I was really torn with either pursuing intellectual property law because that was the point of going to law school after having struggling or enduring four years of mechanical engineering. I wanted to put it to a legal practice. But then in law school I realized there's so much you can do with a legal degree. And so I did a lot of, I worked at a clinic, it was called the Health Justice Project, which is just an amazing clinic at Loyola in Chicago. And then I just made sure that I continued from there. So FemTech was, or my interest in women's health, it kind of came out of when I was got pregnant with my first and didn't know anything about my body and then just really was just fascinated and sometimes way of, sorry,

Rebecca Gwilt (02:46):

It's, it's just interesting how that happens. You think, I mean, work in healthcare, I had the same experience as a first time mother. I was like, wow, I really know nothing.

Giordana Mahn (02:56):

I'm like, how do I not know this? And we're not alone though. And I have been reading so much since I've really gotten involved in FemTech and yet I'll still take that online quiz that they have online. It's like, how well do you know about women's health? And I still fail it. I mean, it's just like, yeah, what I'm learning things. No, but there's just so much more to learn. But of course the, it's so closely tied. I think FemTech's so closely tied to reproductive health justice. Women want choice over their health, right? And whether that it is decide to have a baby or not, if they want choice in contraception or medical care and FemTech provides that choice, these innovative ideas puts more choice on the market for women. So I see how it's really related, but I think my pro bono is just something that I've always wanted to just keep going because I have that power to help. So

Rebecca Gwilt (03:59):

Yeah, it's a great reminder for me and hopefully for other professionals out there that we don't have to be just one thing. It is not sort of choose this, not that. So I just love to see it. And I know it's totally unrelated, but I just want to

Giordana Mahn (04:15):

No, thank you so much for asking. I don't get asked very often about it and it's so important to me. So thank you. Yeah,

Rebecca Gwilt (04:21):

I love it. I'm actually going to learn about the organizations you mentioned because they do impact in those areas is something personally important to me as well. So anyway, kudos to you. I just love to see it. I hope that others take inspiration for it. And today we're actually going to talk about IP issues at a high level that impact all digital health companies, not just FemTech companies. But I am interested, just one more thing in whether there's something unique about the challenges for FemTech companies when it comes to IP protection or whether at the heart of them in terms of protecting their IP. It's sort of the same as other digital health companies.

Giordana Mahn (05:06):

So whether FemTech's different, I think, so digital health can have its own challenges that are the same as whether FemTech or not, because you are running into these eligibility issues with the patent office. And we can talk a little bit more about that later. It's very, very nuanced and it's very case specific, but generally FemTech, I think the challenge there might be, and I've heard just from different people in my network, different challenges they've come across with the PTO and it's just like not, it's being able to explain, I guess it's the miscommunication or not understanding the perspective of the woman with if you need a patent examiner. So it's interesting, they might say, Hey, one of the requirements for a patent is that it has to be not obvious. And so they will kind of put two things together that in a woman's perspective it's like, no, no, no, no.

(06:05):

This is not an obvious combination of things, but in a male, because of that disconnect or that inability to understand the women's perspective in the health care field or the lack thereof in women's health, I think that that can be a unique challenge. There's also with, in terms of obviousness, it's like, okay, well I think a lot of really cool technologies could be just improving designs of existing things, but for the woman's body. So really important examples like the seatbelt. So that could be considered FemTech, a seatbelt that is designed for a woman's body because right now they're only designed for men and at leads to a lot more injuries for women, even though men are more likely to get into car accidents. But anyways, because women's bodies are different. So someone was like, well, someone I've spoken to was like, well, isn't it be obvious because we should have been designing for women? And I think that just because we should have been designing for women doesn't make it ineligible for patent protection because

Rebecca Gwilt (07:13):

That's super fascinating.

Giordana Mahn (07:14):

You have to consider society and whether society is ready to make that kind of progress.

Rebecca Gwilt (07:20):

Yeah, yeah. I mean this is sort of entrenched thinking that is in for just many years. I think things are changing, but for many years has been very, and so the idea that that is institutionalized in the way that people are reviewing patents is absolutely fascinating. I just hadn't thought of that before. Okay. Well I'm glad I asked the question cause I have lots more to sort of intellectually chew on after this and we should talk about how we change that obviously. Yeah.

(07:50):

Okay. So let's dig in. I want to go over some key IP considerations for digital health companies, whether they're just launching their product or service in the marketplace or they're more established and growing market share through new products or geographic expansion. And I want to start with what we will not be getting in today into today. IP is a term as Giordana knows very well, it's applicable to lots of things, patents and trademark trademarks and trade secrets and confidentiality and publicity rights. And what I'd really like to focus on today is patent and trademark. These are the things that I get the most questions about. And I think these are the things that are into which people have the least insight. In general, they're more technical and even GPT4 can't exactly sort of give the broader perspective on this. So I really want to focus on patents and trademarks today and maybe you can talk a little bit about what those two things are like at a high level.

Giordana Mahn (08:55):

At a high level, trademarks protect your brand. So that's really important when you are about to start marketing your brand. Before you invest in a lot of money on all the marketing materials, you want to make sure that you can actually practice your trademark. That's your trade name, that's your logo to make sure that no one in the same field is already there. So I think one of the main things that I might touch up on later is just having a good search beforehand. Whether you file an application or before you file or for register for your trademark, it's important to know what's out there so that you aren't investing a lot of money. And then getting those rejections later at the patent and trademark office. And then high level of patent it is, gives you the right to exclude others from making, using, selling, importing your invention and offering for sale. So it really doesn't give you necessarily the right to do those things, but it excludes others from doing that. So it's really kind of a defensive measure to make sure that, you know, protect your life's work and protect your investment into your digital health platform or just device, things like that.

Rebecca Gwilt (10:08):

Yeah, okay. That's interesting. The patent is not your right to do something. It's your right to exclude others from doing something. And I'm assuming that that is because a patent is not the patent for a device, or not going to use the right words here, but a patent says I can't build this thing. But what if you come along and your seatbelt example, you want to improve upon the thing, so you can't build the thing, but you can exclude people from improving upon it in the way you're improving upon it. Is that right?

Giordana Mahn (10:45):

I think, yeah, I you're, you're definitely onto it. So my FemTech example is the menstrual cups. So I like to use that as a good example because it's been around for a very long time. People can still get patents on it. And that's also, I forgot to mention, but there's also a design patent that could be really useful for your clients in digital health. But anyway, you can't, so if someone comes out and has patent protection over a cup that receives menstrual fluid, for example,

Rebecca Gwilt (11:18):

Yeah,

Giordana Mahn (11:18):

You came up with a really interesting way to remove that cup, whether it's somehow pulling or the material folds in a certain way or it improves upon the thing that is already protected. You might not have the right to practice your invention of, or the protected invention, but you can get a patent on the way that you pull it down in combination with that. So, yes.

Rebecca Gwilt (11:44):

So for instance, if I wanted to build this improvement upon the menstrual cup, would I then have to go to the patent holder, the menstrual cup and say, I want to build the whole thing, not just the removable thing or the new design. I need to license your patent and then I can exclude everybody from building it in the way that I build it. Is that how it works?

Giordana Mahn (12:09):

So if the part that is protected is exactly the same as is claimed in their patent and you would be infringing, then yes, you would have to talk with them and get a license to that, but it wouldn't prevent you from filing for a patent application.

Rebecca Gwilt (12:25):

Okay. I'll try not to get too technical, but I got really interested here and for a second because I didn't, but I hadn't have on my radar that there would be interactions between patents, which seems obvious, but anyway. Interesting, interesting. Okay, so the question that I get a lot is my X,Y,Z, even patentable, and I work with a lot of software companies that use open source software to build their product, or they're delivering services in a particular kind of way, and they think that that's unique and they don't want anybody to steal their idea. And they've heard casually that that's not even something that is patentable. What does that mean? How do companies figure out whether what they have built is even patentable at all?

Giordana Mahn (13:14):

Yeah, I mean it's not an easy question for these clients because even, so my background's in mechanical engineering and I don't deal with what we call 1 0 1 issues, which is the patent eligibility at on a day-to-day basis. So many patent attorneys do that work with software companies, machine learning, with the machine learning technologies and everything the gambit. So I would say, yeah, it's hard and you need to talk to someone who can apply the facts of the law that's changing all the time to your facts specific case. So just generally, I wouldn't say software is ineligible because there are plenty of software patents out there. I think that basically what is eligible is, or I guess what is not eligible is a law of nature, a natural phenomenon and an abstract idea. And a lot of times I think with software, if it can be done by a physician, for example, so if you take a lot of data and you use that data and make a diagnosis and apply it and say, okay, because you've received this data, now this software is processing that data and analyzing it and spitting out the diagnosis that might not be eligible because it's really just replace, it's a computer replacing what a physician can do.

(14:39):

So it has to be a little bit more than that. If you come up with a new method of taking a measurement, then it could be eligible. So it has to be a little bit more, and what a little bit more is really hard to say in general terms.

Rebecca Gwilt (14:57):

Yeah, yeah. Well I even that information is valuable because I have heard blanket statements from a number of people that like this software, the software's just not patentable. So I think the takeaway is you got to ask an expert and it's important enough to do it.

(15:14):

So if I was a company right now, I'd just be hearing dollar signs. And I know that there's a lot of trade-offs for a lot of these companies when they are in the startup phase. And hiring patent council or hiring IP council is rarely what I think what I have people come to me having already done. It's usually a quick Google search and then off to the races practically, when is the right time to think about IP protection, whether it's patent or trademark, or maybe a better question is when when's the right time to really invest in it.

Giordana Mahn (15:59):

I think it's important to think about it right away because if you disclose your idea without a confidentiality agreement, then you have a year from that disclosure date from that public disclosure to file for an application or you lose it.

Rebecca Gwilt (16:18):

What does public mean? What is public disclosure? Is that a commercial or is that, I talked to my investors about it?

Giordana Mahn (16:25):

It could be in a public setting and if your investors aren't covered by confidentiality agreements, then there, there's maybe an argument there that it was a public disclosure. If you tell your idea to have a small party in your backyard, that would be a public disclosure if you are practicing it without even it being considered experimental. And there are a bunch of factors that kind of determine whether it's experimental or not, but then that could be a disclosure. And there's this famous case that we learn in law school about this corset manufacturer that created a new corset that had his wife wear

Rebecca Gwilt (17:06):

Who wants a corset?

Giordana Mahn (17:07):

I know, and it's the, it's terrible technology. It's terrible. But so I'm not too upset that he didn't, I wasn't patent, I'm just kidding. So she wore under her clothes and no one saw that she was wearing it, but she wore it around in public. But it was a year after, I think you tried to file for a patent application and that was considered a public disclosure. So even though people didn't see it, she was wearing it in public, she was using it. So she used to be, so

Rebecca Gwilt (17:37):

So you say, I'm doing this thing in a public setting. You get the clock starts and you have one year to file a patent, and what happens after one year? It's not patentable?

Giordana Mahn (17:48):

You can't file a patent application on it. Yeah. So you were barred and the risks of filing anyway and then go run going through the patent office and not disclosing that could make render it ineligible later. So someone could challenge it and be like, okay, well here's a publication that you wrote about all the things that you have gotten patent protection for was in this publication over a year ago. You know, take that to court and your patent is killed, so it's not even worth that risk because of all the expense that you've gone into. Sure. Just investing in the patent protection and then the litigation afterwards. And it's a really important, and especially for patent attorneys, we have a duty disclose. I mean, inventors have a duty disclosed too, but we take that very seriously. So if we know of either some, a previous disclosure or even of prior art that's really could be considered damaging. We have to disclose that to the patent office.

Rebecca Gwilt (18:51):

And the patent projection doesn't last forever. Right?

Giordana Mahn (18:55):

It's 20 years from filing. That's for a utility patent, for a design patent. It's 15 years from date of grant.

Rebecca Gwilt (19:03):

Okay.

Giordana Mahn (19:04):

And I think I would like to talk about quickly about digital, about design patents for digital health companies because even are protecting software and let's just say it is ineligible, and again, I would not just say, oh, my invention is in software, it's ineligible. I would not say that, but if you could create interesting graphical user interface for the app that you were using for that can be protected under design patents. And so that is a cheaper way of doing it or of getting patent protection, and that's really just the ornamental design of the display screen that might be on your phone or your watch if you have a smartwatch or something like that. And so that has been a way to protect the user interface for some applications.

Rebecca Gwilt (19:53):

Gosh, that's super interesting because in my space, what I see a lot is reuse of that kind of thing. I'm going to look at my competitors and then I'm going to build this and it's going to look I, it's going to save me some time because that's not really the point of my service website's, just the interface and what's really important about it is the way that what our device does or what our clinical outcomes are, what have you. Right. But that's really interesting that that's something that they would need to think about that just the unique view into the unique view that someone has when they find them on the internet. That could be something that's protected by a design patent. Tell me what a design patent is. It's it just for things that you can see or is it more than that?

Giordana Mahn (20:44):

Yeah, it's really just the ornamental of something.

Rebecca Gwilt (20:48):

Ornamental appearance. Okay, got it. Got it. It okay. Yeah.

Giordana Mahn (20:52):

Interesting. So if you have an animation, you can even protect it how an animation changes over a couple screens. And if you have an interesting way or an aesthetically pleasing or sleek design of how to deliver a certain diagnosis, that could be something that you'd want to protect so that other people don't take that.

Rebecca Gwilt (21:12):

Yeah, yeah. Super interesting. Okay, so what does an IP protection strategy, just talking about sort of patent, let's narrow it. What does an IP protection strategy look like for us? An early stage like a startup company versus a more mature company that is sort of expanding or is there a difference?

Giordana Mahn (21:39):

Yeah, totally. There can be for sure. I mean, there's definitely some overlap and it just depends on the business goals of the company. So with startups, I find that they're looking for just getting into the office, US PTO is a first to file system, so it's not necessarily first to invent in the door first. So if they are about to disclose it at a trade show or to prospective in investors and they want to make sure that their patent is in the office, they are looking probably at a non-pro provisional or provisional application. A provisional application does not get examined by the office, but it kind of saves your a place in line with the patent office so that your date is in stone. And then when you can file a year later for non-pro provisional, which then gets examined. And within that year, I find that it again, could be both clients, types of clients, but that can give someone a year to market their idea around, see if there are, is any interest before they really invest in the back and forth, the prosecution part of the patent application process. So because that could be a number of rounds of back and forth with the examiner, so which is an investment in itself. So I think there are different reasons why someone would want to file a provisional, buy them some time to see if any there's interest or investment before they file the app non-pro provisional.

Rebecca Gwilt (23:14):

That, well, what it's making me think of is companies for whom the development of the sort of the MVP takes a year in itself and during that time they're building it and they're getting feedback from their network and they're doing customer evaluations. And it sounds like what you're saying is if they don't file that sort of notice that if product takes a year to develop before they get to their MVP, they could have told already that, not told, but they could have exhausted already that year long protection for patent. Is that the case?

Giordana Mahn (24:00):

And I might not be understanding the question, but what can happen is over a year a lot can change, and even through the patent process, cheap tweak, people keep tweaking their designs to come up with something. So that's why it's important that to talk to a patent attorney, when you want to file a provisional, you can file, anyone can file a provisional application with a PTO, it could be a slide deck, really it be, it doesn't have to be a ton of stuff. The requirements aren't the same as non-pro provisional, but a patent attorney will make sure that the claims are as brought as possible to cover all the possible different iterations. We'll talk to the invention inventors and be like, okay, well where do you see this going? Where are the extra bells and whistles that maybe you'd want to add onto it so that you can cover it? You can still have a provisional disclosure that could cover iterations down the line, and that that's not always the case. Sometimes it's like, okay, we went in a completely different direction. Okay, you can file a new application.

Rebecca Gwilt (24:58):

So you don't need detailed design diagrams of what the thing is going to be when it is the thing. It can just be when you say provisional, this is my idea. Here's the kind of thing I'm building, I just want to save my place in line.

Giordana Mahn (25:13):

And I think for a provisional, especially if you're doing it yourself, figures are really helpful because you can rely on figures even if you don't describe it in the description later, to amend your claims. And that's not always the same abroad. So the US, we can really rely on the figures. So detailed figures can still really help, but it's important to,

Rebecca Gwilt (25:32):

But if you don't have them, you can still enjoy the connection.

Giordana Mahn (25:38):

As long as it's a robust detail description. I know it's hard for me to be like, oh, you just put

Rebecca Gwilt (25:44):

Two. Yeah, I know. This is like two lawyers being like, well, this is okay.

Giordana Mahn (25:48):

It depends. But I do want to say for a big company, something that a small company might not be thinking of, though there are for sure, and I've talked to some, but is global protection. There are strategies that you want to think about early on about where you want protection and to make sure that you don't prevent any filings later on because you've made a disclosure. So in Europe, there's an absolute novelty requirement, so they can't be, like in the US, you can publish a paper on your invention and then file an application within that year. But in Europe, if they file, have that publication, it has to be a first filing. So they have to rely on a US filing. And I could be getting this a little muddled up. I don't practice European patent law daily, but there are considerations that you have to make.

Rebecca Gwilt (26:48):

Yeah, I think it's a good point to pay attention to it. I mean, we're all observing digital health become more global in nature. And so it'd be interesting to know whether international, whether this, there's this same sort of public disclosure restriction for IP protection in other countries, and if you publicly disclose it in the US is that public disclosure overseas? It's all good questions to ask,

Giordana Mahn (27:18):

And generally it is. So public disclosure, if it can be found by a patent office abroad, then yeah, it's something to think about.

Rebecca Gwilt (27:28):

Super interesting. Super interesting. Okay, so I'm interested in, just so I can crystallize in my mind the potential impact of failing to put together an IP strategy from the beginning. Do you have an example, not naming names, of course, of an example of a time when a digital company, a digital health company, could have avoided disaster by implementing an IP strategy, and what does that look like? What is the impact to not getting this right?

Giordana Mahn (28:05):

Yeah, so I kind of adopted a case later on in patent prosecution. So this was after the provisional was filed, the non-pro provisional was filed, and then when we were looking at prior art that the examiner found, we found that it was something to do with the disclosure date and it was the patent owner's previous disclosure. And so the dates are there, we can't overcome something. If you disclosed it and didn't file something within a year, then that's going to borrow you from getting a patent. So a lot of time an investment went into this because the inventor was not upfront about when they first publicly disclosed their invention. And it could be they didn't understand the rules, what a public disclosure is and what that means and sure. But yeah, I mean, a lot of money can be lost because if you keep going with it and then the patent office finds your own disclosure.

Rebecca Gwilt (29:17):

And then what happens, so then all your competitors know they can build exactly what you built and they can replicate it. That's sort of what happens, folks.

Giordana Mahn (29:28):

There's no public announcement about it, but you don't have any protection over that. So

Rebecca Gwilt (29:33):

Yeah, I'm sure you have the value of the company.

Giordana Mahn (29:37):

So when you have a provisional patent filed, you can put patent pending on your products, but as soon as that's abandoned, can't say that it's a provisional or patent pending anymore.

Rebecca Gwilt (29:51):

Yeah, I mean, what my learnings from today are that this is super complicated. This is not a DIY thing to do for companies, but that there is value in actual consultation around this. It doesn't sound like there's one pathway. It sounds like you should be able to go to someone and say, okay, well here's my goals and here's what I'm doing and here's my accurate truthful disclosure about when people first heard about this and work with someone to put together a custom strategy around this, and h sort of how you protect the thing that you spent all this time building.

Giordana Mahn (30:35):

Yeah, definitely. Got it.

Rebecca Gwilt (30:38):

What is the most important thing that a company can do right now if they're just getting started, if they've done nothing, of course, contact an attorney, but what is a thing they could do today that would put them in a better position than they were yesterday if they hadn't gotten started yet?

Giordana Mahn (30:53):

Yeah, I would do, there's a lot of resources like with the USPTO for inventors. So if you're doing your own searching or even just using a Google search, Google patent search, you can find out pretty fast if someone has your trademark, the name of your company, and if they're in the same kind of area that you're in, if they're also a digital health company selling the same goods or services as you are with the exact same name, that might be a problem that you can find out right away and before you invest a lot into your brand. Same thing with patent. It's hard. It can be difficult to read the claims of a patent if you're not familiar with them because it's, it's a lot of legal language, but you can do some searching, which could save some time and money for you, money in terms of investment, but also you can kind of have an idea of where you'd like to go and give you confidence in that. Yeah, I can pursue this because I don't see anything out there. And I've really looked.

Rebecca Gwilt (31:57):

Yeah, I mean, this is good advice. I've had a number of clients come and say, we have to redo our entire, or we just spent $50,000 on marketing and we got a letter that says, Hey, that's my company name. You can't do that. And so even in those small ways, I think it's a great point, just Googling around, going to the USPTO, finding their free, free resources just for some early assurance that you don't need to make a big pivot. And then the other thing that I've learned today is that there are some options for companies who may not for whom their product may not be protectable, but there's still a way to protect it through something like a design pattern or something like that. So that's interesting. I hadn't known that before. Anything else before we close that you want to share with our listeners, Giordana?

Giordana Mahn (33:04):

No, I don't think so. I mean, I enjoyed this conversation. I think, you know, distilled it very easily, so your clients are lucky to have you that you can just be like, oh, well,

Rebecca Gwilt (33:19):

It's definitely not my, definitely not my area. Yeah, go ahead.

Giordana Mahn (33:24):

No, no, no, nothing.

Rebecca Gwilt (33:26):

So I will put your information, your contact information in the show notes. Giordana does publish on these topics. I would absolutely follow her on LinkedIn. And thank you so much for listening to Decoding Healthcare Innovation. I hope you enjoyed today's discussion. If you haven't already, please subscribe to decoding Healthcare Innovation, follow us on LinkedIn and Twitter. And as always, you can check out all the links and resources in the show notes, find out more about our work in healthcare at nixongwiltlaw.com and we will see you next time. Thank you so much, Giordana.

Giordana Mahn (33:57):

Thank you so much for having me.

Announcer (34:01):

Thank you for listening to Decoding Healthcare Innovation. If you'd like the show, please subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to find out more about Carrie, me, or Nixon Gwilt Law, go to nixongwiltlaw.com or click the links in the show notes.