Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Buzzsprout, or follow the podcast on LinkedIn for new episode drops.

In this episode you’ll discover:

• What’s driving healthcare’s shift toward globalization 

• How companies can learn from the world around them

• What big thing international healthcare companies are grappling with 

• Why it is crucial to demonstrate ROI 

Keep scrolling for a transcript of this episode.

Key Takeaways

• There’s a shift in healthcare innovation towards globalization. This can be seen from the changing requirements in Europe and how UK companies consider engaging a bigger market. 

• Healthcare companies have to keep an eye on what they can learn from what’s already been built around the world in order for them to provide faster, easier, and generally better care for patients. 

• Reimbursement is the biggest thing that they don’t understand. They know they don’t understand it and they don’t know where to start. That’s why a lot of them are looking for support in order to get better insight into how they will get paid. 

• Provide a value proposition or an ROI presentation that the customer is going to care about. View everything that you do through the lens of a provider. Focus on solutions that already have clinical data and develop more clinical data based on an ROI that’s going to drive adoption. 

Learn more from Carrie and Rebecca: 

Healthcare insights (monthly email) | Telehealth/Virtual Care Mgmt Update (biweekly LinkedIn update)

Website | Carrie on LinkedIn | Rebecca on LinkedIn | NGL on LinkedIn

Learn More

Website: https://www.tmc.edu/ 

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilyreiser/ 

More on the ROI of Digital Health in Episode 36: https://nixongwiltlaw.com/dhi-podcast/2022/10/2/understanding-digital-healths-roi-with-adam-block

More on positioning your solution to health system CFOs: https://nixongwiltlaw.com/dhi-podcast/episode-41-what-digital-health-innovators-need-to-know-about-selling-to-hospitals-and-health-system-cios

Read the transcript

Rebecca Gwilt (00:17):

Welcome back to Decoding Healthcare Innovation. I'm your co-host, Rebecca Gwilt, Partner at Nixon Gwilt Law, where we help digital health companies understand, plan for, and launch their products and services in the US market. Among other things, I'm so glad to welcome back Emily Reiser, who is now Associate Director of Innovation at Texas Medical Center Innovation. Texas Medical Center, some of you may know, is the largest medical complex in the world. And Emily leads programs and supports Texas Medical Center's (TMC's), community of healthcare entrepreneurs, investors, clinicians and advisors. She's also an amazing advocate for women in tech. You can catch her later this week in Houston talking about this topic. Welcome back, Emily.

Emily Reiser (00:59):

Thank you so much, Rebecca. I'm super excited to be talking with you today.

Rebecca Gwilt (01:03):

Yes, yes. So, okay. So Emily has one of the coolest jobs there is. She is every day working alongside healthcare entrepreneurs and innovators from all over the world who themselves are working every day to improve healthcare for all of us. It's a passion that she and I share. So today I'm super excited to talk about how the innovation team at TMC Innovation has gone global. But first, Emily, it seems to me that TMC's innovation ecosystem has grown and evolved pretty significantly over the last two years since last we formally spoke on the podcast. Tell me what y'all have been up to over there.

Emily Reiser (01:42):

Yeah, for sure. And you're right, the best part about being here at the medical center and doing this work is getting to spend time with our clinical network and our founders and folks like you that are similar, dedicated to making sure that they're successful and launching their businesses and growing them. So at the medical center, we've really been expanding in the last two years. I think what the Texas Medical Center does really well is specialized space. So when you think about of course, growing companies, they need a place to meet and be successful even in the post-COVID world. And we also work with a lot of medical device and digital and therapeutics companies. And so those companies also need specialized spaces. So here at the medical center, we have dedicated prototyping space and lab space for therapeutics companies and it's all in the same place so that founders can be in community with one another.

(02:44):

And the other thing that we are really focused on is talent. And talent means of course on our team, which we've grown tremendously, the talent that we've brought on the team in the last year, it also means talent in our community. So the founders that we're attracting to come work with us as well as the talented members of our medical community that engage with us and support all of the companies in learning more about how to better optimize their products for markets. So when I think about what I'm most excited about in the last year, it's really about the quality of the talented people that are coming together here in the medical center, all with that same shared goal to bring innovation and solutions to patients and make healthcare easier to access and easier to grow.

Rebecca Gwilt (03:41):

So I hear space and I hear talent. I think the other thing that I think about with Texas Medical Center is just the co-location with some tremendous physicians and non-physician sort of innovators within the health system in a way that allows people to build relationships. So let's say they come there for an accelerator or an incubator program, they're also just there at this massive complex where they have access to world class healthcare providers and visionaries. I was looking on your website and I saw the branding is different. Perhaps it's not significantly different, but I'm seeing things like the innovation factory and you've got multiple accelerators now. Give me a sense of what makes up the medical center innovation ecosystem.

Emily Reiser (04:36):

Yeah, sure. So exactly like you said, we are embedded in and proximate to the Texas Medical Center, which serves 10 million patients every year in a two square mile radius. So it's just an incredible density of clinical care. We also have a huge amount of clinical trials, over 6,000 each year. And we have awesome basic science research happening as well as excellent med schools, nursing schools, training programs, you name it. So it's definitely a great place to come for healthcare. MD Anderson, Houston Methodist, Texas Children's, Baylor College of Medicine, lots of big reputable brand names on the campus that are doing excellent work. And then also it's a great place to come to be trained or to develop scientific inventions and contribute to the future of therapies, devices and so on. So that's where we're embedded within. And then when we think about TMC Innovation, it's the place that you come to get structured access to the stakeholders within that broad network that are really similarly dedicated to making innovation become reality.

(05:48):

So it's not just these large institutions, it's who is the anesthesiologist at an institution that eager to give you feedback on your surgical product and how the anesthesiology department would think about it, who is the former CFO of three of the health systems that serves on a bunch of boards of startups that can give you great strategic advice. It's our team really connects founders to those people that can provide excellent strategic insights about how to better position a product or how to build the next generation of products. And so that's really what TMC Innovation is all about, bringing great founders into the community and then structuring their access to the key stakeholders that can really help them build, be successful and go to market successfully here in the medical center. And if you can do it here with a cancer hospital and a children's hospital and an ACO and all these different types of care delivery and financial models, then we believe you can be successful anywhere.

Rebecca Gwilt (06:53):

So in my next life where I jump into the founder side of healthcare innovation, I'm going to be calling you up. I will also, for anybody listening who has not heard of TMC, I'm going to add a bunch of resources to the show notes. This is not meant to be an advertisement for the innovation team, although they are absolutely incredible. I'm glad to see your growth. I'm super excited about the impact that all of your talent and the talent of the companies that are coming there are going to contribute to stuff that's going to help me, cause we're all patients. And so I'm going to pivot there a little bit and I want to talk about the reason why I brought you on today, and that is because I saw a post on LinkedIn that indicated to me that TMC Innovation was taking a more global approach. And I learned about your partnership with Innovate UK. There are tremendous resources at Texas Medical Center Innovation, that's probably why Innovate UK was keen to partner up. Tell me a little bit about this new program.

Emily Reiser (08:04):

Yeah, for sure. So the Texas Medical Center broadly, even beyond innovation, is really focused on a global approach for talent and access and then a very local approach to our institutions here in Texas, which do span from Galveston to Austin now. So it's even growing there based on how each of our different institutions are independently growing as well. So the Texas Medical Center has four official relationships with international countries, typically at the governmental level, think like a Minister of Health or a Minister of Trade, things like that. And the purpose of these agreements is really to understand how can we leverage the strengths of the medical center and leverage the strengths of those countries and build a bridge back and forth where we share ideas, research opportunities for growth. And then within that we have this innovation engine where startup companies from those countries can get plugged into the structured introductions to our community.

(09:08):

So we have been working with these different partners for a while, but this summer we're going to launch two new official programs, one with our partners in Denmark and one with Innovate Uk. So it's really exciting to be working with Innovate UK and what we really look for in a partner is those who have a great understanding of the founders in their community who are building something that's clinically relevant. So we love working with Innovate UK so far because they fund companies to reach clinical milestones. So these startups in the UK can apply to Innovate UK for funding to do a clinical study, a feasibility study to run a pilot with one of the trusts in the NHS and then Innovate UK will grant them the money to be able to go do that. That means that the Innovate UK team really understands which companies are making progress and which founders are serious about growing their businesses and doing it with clinical rigor. And so we asked them to really open up an application process and 114 companies just from the UK applied to this program.

Rebecca Gwilt (10:18):

Oh wow. Wow. 114.

Emily Reiser (10:20):

Yes. Just an incredible density across the country. The London -Cambridge-Oxford Triangle are definitely international renowned as a powerhouse for innovation research and lots of awesome clinical care and science as well. But we saw great technology coming from Wales, from Scotland, from Manchester just across the UK. So that was super exciting to see all of the new emerging founders and technologies that they were building. And so together with the team, we selected 16 companies out of the 114, and those 16 companies are going to join us in June for a customized program that will last throughout 2023. And we're really excited to be launching that with them this year.

Rebecca Gwilt (11:08):

So I heard Innovate UK, did I hear Denmark? and a few other countries?

Emily Reiser (11:14):

Yes. So we also have a great relationship with Denmark and we are also launching a customized track for Danish companies to come through our programs as well. And so in Denmark, the Novo Nordisk Foundation funds a group called the BioInnovation Institute, and it's fun because it's quite similar to us at TMC Innovation. They have co-working space, lab space and accelerator programs for startups. And so they selected three companies in the digital health space that they're going to support to come over here to the US and access an accelerator network here in the medical center, and so those companies will be also joining us this summer.

Rebecca Gwilt (11:57):

Okay. So I have, I'm aware of the efforts there at Texas Medical Center. I have been hearing at some of the larger industry conferences for the last probably two years, that there's more energy being poured into the international healthcare innovation ecosystem. I'm sort of observing, I think a shift towards globalism sort of in healthcare tech, meaning international companies looking to expand into other countries, especially in the US. My assumption is that that's been accelerated due to the pandemic and certainly some regulatory changes in Europe. Is this something that you're seeing as well? I mean I know you have a good view not just in Texas, but sort of across the industry. Do you think this is a trend that's going to continue grow, et cetera?

Emily Reiser (12:47):

Yes, absolutely. And there's definitely macro pieces like the changing requirements in Europe that you mentioned, especially on the medical device side with MDD and MDR shifting around. And so we're seeing a lot of the UK companies thinking that it's just as much work to go to the US as it is to go to the rest of Europe, so might as well go to the bigger market. So the countries that we're working with, let's take Denmark, they have 5 million people in the whole country and we have 10 million patients accessing care here each year. So thinking about the scale of why they would want to come to the US, it's very clear, but what can we learn from them and leverage from what's already been built around the world to provide even faster and easier access to better care for patients. That's, that's what we think about.

(13:41):

So certainly in the European markets and in the UK as well, the value-based environment has been in place longer. And so also as we shift more fee for service and have more needs for risk stratifications and care management, that's been embedded into how these companies have grown up in their home countries. And so they are in some cases ready to just apply that to our environment. Same thing with sustainability. Sustainability was not really talked about much and is only now emerging as something that hospitals in the US are starting to pay more attention to. But when we hear pitches from UK companies, they talk about their carbon offset in their second sentence because it's such a big important topic of conversation there right now. So we're definitely learning a lot from our international companies and looking to find the best ones and bring those insights and those technologies here to the medical center and the US market more broadly.

Rebecca Gwilt (14:49):

This is super fascinating. I hadn't thought about the sort of structural differences of the European sort of health insurance system and the fact that a lot of these companies may have a leg up on some US companies who are entrenched in the fee for service mindset and that they, that might be an advantage actually generally coming from outside of a very complicated regulatory structure. Or you would think that's sort of a disadvantage, but that's a very cool twist on that. And I wonder what do you think that this means, this sort of rise of globalism and health tech? What does this mean for how we think about US healthcare innovation, our ecosystem here? I mean certainly it sounds like there could be positives for patients, but what about the field here? Do you think it gets crowded here? Do you think it'll sort of exacerbate the competition for funding we're already seeing play out? How do you think the sort of influx of international healthcare innovators is going to sort of impact our ecosystem here?

Emily Reiser (15:51):

Well, I definitely think that there's consolidation that was already happening and is already happening regardless of other entrants coming into the market just around what we're continuing to hear from providers about their vendor fatigue and they're looking to have more singular touchpoints to manage all of the different technology solutions. And that's starting to be a really big topic of conversation independent of new entrants internationally. So I think that exists without that. And I think here in the US it's all about competition. So whoever has great technology and can execute effectively will, and that's what we're all about, I suppose. And that's definitely what we talk a lot with international companies about helping them get ready for that process. I think you mentioned challenging regulatory environments and in that case there's going to be some European countries and international companies that aren't going to have an advantage at, I'm thinking telemedicine and other of the really highly regulated areas that you all are so expert in supporting your clients around, but in

Rebecca Gwilt (17:02):

Thank you so much.

Emily Reiser (17:04):

Well, but in some cases where it's not state by state regulated or where it's more provider oriented, there might be solutions that have been developed internationally that are suited for the needs right now. And on the funding side of things, European companies often get a lot of access to non-dilutive capital in their home countries. So they can build out quite a big data set, develop a potential ROI on quite a bit of non-dilutive funding and with generally less expensive talent to go build that. So they're pretty capital efficient and they come in with quite a bit of data and not huge valuations. So I'm actually not really thinking that they would be a big threat to crowding further the market landscape. I think the broader market dynamics are playing a much bigger role in the overall pressures that the startups are feeling than any new entrance from Europe would be.

Rebecca Gwilt (18:07):

Interesting. Interesting. I also want to go back to what you said before about the challenging regulatory environment in Europe and that being sort of a motivator for folks to eye the US market, especially because we're large, but we're also some of the sickest populations that there are around globally. Are you think the main motivators for companies considering the US as a target market or what other motivators are you identifying?

Emily Reiser (18:44):

Well, definitely the overall size plays a big role. So Ireland only having 5 million people in their whole country. Those companies establish knowing that they're going to have to go global, whether that's to the UK, to Europe or elsewhere. So it's more ingrained into their founding than we would think about it here in the US. But not only do we have a huge population and a sick population, like you mentioned, we also pay a lot more for our healthcare here and we also have a little bit more forward-leaning reimbursement practices in some cases. So for example, in the UK there's not really set up reimbursement for remote patient monitoring, although that's of course a big topic of discussion here in the US right now as to the future of that. But they don't have anything like that in the UK.

Rebecca Gwilt (19:38):

So yeah, shout out to Carrie Nixon and Kaitlyn O'Connor at Nixon Gwilt Law leading the charge on remote monitoring.

Emily Reiser (19:44):

Yes, so important. And we hear a lot of UK companies coming in that space and just more casually like, oh yeah, we're just going to access this code. And we're like, no, you need to talk to Nixon Gwilt Law about that. Cause you're not just going to be able to come here and measure this one thing exactly as it says in the code and just get reimbursed for it. So that's a lot of what we do when we work with them is what are your intentions, what do you think you're going to be able to do? And then working backwards with them to say, okay, this is something that we don't think you're just going to be able to walk in and do. Here's the expert that you need to talk about to really figure out how that would happen, how much time and money it would take to get ready for that so that they're more prepared for entering the US market in the first place.

Rebecca Gwilt (20:31):

Yeah, it's certainly even for US-based entrepreneurs, it's often a surprise how complicated the reimbursement landscape is, even if you just narrow it to fee for service, not even getting into of the value-based models. But it does strike me that if you're in a country that's used to sort of low reimbursement certainly, but difficult reimbursement because it's a value-based business model proposition that saying, hey, well in the US you just bill XYZ code and you can make money every time you do. It might seem deceptively simple.

Emily Reiser (21:14):

Certainly that's what we hear often is, I think I'm going to come in and I'm going to use this code and it's just going to work like that. And not only is the reimbursement more complicated than that, but the clinical workflow is also more complicated than that. Just cause you have a code doesn't mean that you're actually going to get that code and doesn't mean that the weird referral patterns that we have and just the entire kind of care paradigm here is also very different from what they're used to. So a lot of it is mapping care pathways and understanding referrals and how do actually patients get to that intervention that you're going to provide.

Rebecca Gwilt (21:54):

Yeah, I mean you're speaking my language here. My insight is based on a somewhat more narrow field than you get to see on a regular basis focused on legal and regulatory and reimbursement since that's what I do for a living. But I'm interested in your thoughts beyond those things about the common things that these international companies get stuck on when they're entering the US while you're working with them elbow to elbow, what are they grappling with that you're helping them figure out?

Emily Reiser (22:25):

Yeah, I think reimbursement is really the biggest one that they don't understand. They know that they don't understand it and they don't know how to start to understand it. That's why they're looking for support to get better insight into how that all happens. That's the primary one. How am I going to get paid for this in a new market environment?

Rebecca Gwilt (22:48):

It's a good question. It's a good question, Emily, because I got to tell you, there's been a lot of digital health companies that grew leaps and bounds over the last couple years that waited a long time to ask the question, how do I make money doing this? I think you've seen a big focus on that.

Emily Reiser (23:07):

We also want to see companies that will take some risk on that. The digital therapeutic space is what I'm thinking of where the companies have to build it and then the reimbursement has to follow the data too. So, and of course there's going to be exceptions and people are going to build things without a fully clear picture of how it's going to get paid at the end of the day. But certainly that's one of the primary questions that we ask any founder, whether they're from the US or not. How do you think this is going to get paid from the get-go? And it's really the main question we work with all of the companies on over the six months and beyond that we work with them, whether they're US based or not.

Rebecca Gwilt (23:46):

Yeah, I mean think it's really, really important. I think certainly given your perspective here that companies may view reimbursement in the US as more simplified might lead to some of decisions that may not be the right decisions when they're considering entering another market or especially the US. I think it's a tremendous benefit to TMC Innovation and any other advisor to these international companies to ask that early, that question early and often, other than having an undefined or ill-defined sort of revenue model, what are some common mistakes that you see these companies make in this journey? My goal is that some of them are watching from Glasgow or listening rather and saying, okay, so what should I have on my punch list? What should I be looking at to avoid some of the mistakes that folks before me have made?

Emily Reiser (24:48):

Yeah, I think the second on that list, that's where we're ultra focused is around that clinical workflow because it is related to the money and it's also related to the adoption. And so similarly to what you were saying, some of the founders come in thinking, okay, I'm going to be in this DRG that I found on the website and then I'm going to get reimbursed at this rate every procedure. And so I'm just going to walk into any value analysis committee at any hospital and I'm just going to be like, here you go. Here's the data set from here up then, right? We're going to go from there. But even simple things—is saving MRI time or OR time enough of a value proposition? Not often. Is it adding revenue to the hospital or is it creating an efficiency and really defining that ROI? And knowing that the ROI is going to look different in Europe versus the US.

(25:49):

And then the other thing which is more on the personality side, we definitely have a culture in the US of failure is accepted and celebrated and persistence is celebrated and people are visionary storytellers and they're saying, we're going to build this thing. And oftentimes in Europe and Australia and other places, there's more of a 'be humble, don't say it until it's done.' And even then don't make a big splash out of it. It's called the tall poppy syndrome. I guess it's not really a syndrome, it's the tall poppy, a phenomenon in Australia where other people will basically take you down a notch if you're being too grandiose. But definitely in the startup world, even in healthcare where you need to very specific about what you are doing, there's definitely this visionary element, the storytelling element for both learning from and talking to your customers or raising money. So that's another thing that we work on is not just communicating more effectively their value proposition, but communicating their vision for what they're going to build and how they're going to get there.

Rebecca Gwilt (27:07):

Yeah. My team was at ViVE what maybe two weeks ago in Nashville, and I made sure to attend a bunch of sessions on what it looks like to sell into hospitals and health systems and payers right now. And ROI was like the hot topic, it's becoming much more important. More people at those large organizations are getting involved in that conversation. And it's a stark contrast from what I saw a year ago, two years ago. So I think also those conversations are of tremendous value. And certainly being at the medical center gives you access to, like you said, you can go to the CFO and say, Hey, this is what we think is valuable. Is this enough to tip the scales for a buying decision for you? So these kinds of insights, I think they're brilliant. Again, this is why you have the coolest job in the universe. You can see all of this happening in real time.

Emily Reiser (28:02):

Yeah, I mean, our health systems have been talking about ROI upfront and vendor fatigue for a little while. So it was interesting to see at ViVE like ROI and you're like, yeah, of course it is. But that's just because we live in it day in and day out. So it's also nice to get access to those conferences to hear what the national conversation is. But yeah, it's so important. I mean, if there's not a pathway to demonstrating an ROI that a system cares about, then it's not worth spending time or energy to do it in this market. And sometimes that is the answer, frankly. Sometimes it's, Hey, this isn't the right market for you right now. Keep growing where you are and come back when the timing is different or when you have more data to show this particular ROI. Cause that's what the customers are going to care about. So sometimes that's the advice that we give as well.

Rebecca Gwilt (28:54):

Yeah, I mean even that subject is something that could use a drill down, not it's not for today, but could use a drill down. This process of developing ROI. It's actually quite complex and involves hard data.

Emily Reiser (29:10):

Yeah, it's so complex and so solution specific and problem specific too. So showing ROI for a cardiac surgical device is going to be really different than a novel oncology biomarker that's using imaging only versus a remote patient monitoring solution that's doing better patient management. So all of those have such different ROI definitions and even different budget owners within a health system that care about those things differently. So that's right. Yeah, it's very case by case. There are some generalizations that we can draw, but we work on that with companies individually because it's not a formula that you can follow in general.

Rebecca Gwilt (29:55):

Yeah, I've heard it from a lot of folks. And I'm also observing more service providers in the industry who are using this as a very niche set of skills. I'm going to help you make your ROI argument. I'm going to use this data and these methods, et cetera. So anyway, I'll have to, I'll put that on the punch list for the next conversation. I want to make one quick pivot before we break. Cause I know you're quite busy and I want you to get back to helping all these innovators so that I have amazing healthcare into my old age. What is your perspective on the digital health market in general these days? I know we talked about consolidation a little bit, but we're observing some austerity measures by buyers. Certainly increased due diligence by investors that's slowing and in some cases stopping altogether the investment lifecycle in the VC space and valuations in some cases have just absolutely plummeted. It sounds a bit bleak, but I know that there are reasons to be optimistic. I'm interested in your take on this.

Emily Reiser (31:01):

Yeah. A Oh, there's a lot in there.

Rebecca Gwilt (31:05):

You can do it.

Emily Reiser (31:07):

I think at the medical center and at TMC Innovation, we're ultra focused on solutions that already have clinical data and are looking to develop more clinical data based on an ROI that is going to drive adoption. So we are really embedded in that world. And I think that there was a lot of digital health.

Rebecca Gwilt (31:31):

I, wait, we have to go back actually, cause I'm turning this over in my head and I think that's actually a brilliant set of words that you've put together. I want you to say this again, so I absorb it. You said you're focused on companies with demonstrable clinical data.

Emily Reiser (31:51):

Yep

Rebecca Gwilt (31:51):

Who can...

Emily Reiser (31:52):

Our main stake stakeholder are health systems providers, clinicians, that is the core of the medical center. To a lesser extent, they have some ACOs and some of their own payers, but really predominantly providers in a fee for service model are our main archetype of our stakeholders. And so everything that we do is viewed through the lens of, is a provider going to care about this or is a clinician going to adopt this? And therefore we are really biased and we are really selective to only work with companies that are coming in with some kind of clinical data or in the device case, sometimes preclinical data, some kind of reason they think that their product is going to work in the environment that they say it will. And they're looking to come and be a part of our community because they want to demonstrate additional clinical data that's related to an ROI that's going to drive adoption. So they're here to do a clinical study, they're here to do a preclinical study. They're here to do a feasibility study. They're here to ask a bunch of clinicians questions about how they would use their product. They're here to scale up a digital health solution across an enterprise system. Maybe they've only worked with small clinics before and they're looking to understand how enterprise cycles and needs are going to be different and how that ROI is going to be different. And so to play back all that, yeah...

Rebecca Gwilt (33:27):

These components. These components sound like not just a recipe for success under your thesis at the Texas Medical Center, but in general. Right. But we've been talking about this for a while, making sure you have clinical data that says this is actually something that works. Making sure that you have an ROI. Making sure that you have figured out a way to build it or present it or whatever that increases likelihood of adoption. Those three things seem like that seems like the recipe.

Emily Reiser (33:57):

Well, and that is where our focus has really helped us to stay ahead of some of the market changes that have happened recently, because

Rebecca Gwilt (34:05):

I bet

Emily Reiser (34:06):

As the availability of capital has gone dramatically down compared to what it was two years ago, the companies that are continuing to be successful are tending to have more of this clinical data. And so that's right. And they have more tie to adoption. So it's still going to be a tough time for a lot of companies here in the next year. So even great companies with great clinical data are still having trouble fundraising. It's not necessarily a recipe for guaranteed success by any means, but as the market has shifted, we've seen a lot of our companies be able to continue to grow because they've been focused on that clinical ROI and clinical data as their priority. And so they've continued to see growth.

Rebecca Gwilt (34:57):

So I'm hoping that folks listened all the way to the end because that last piece I'm going to take with me, it's super impactful. Clinical data, ROI, likelihood of adoption. Talking about people's north stars—it sounds simple, but I do think that I haven't heard those three together, especially this piece about likelihood of adoption for in any forum. I'm going to write that in my, I'm going to put that it on a post-it note next to my computer. I'm going to go back to it every time I'm talking to my clients. So anyway, so Emily, thank you so much for joining me today. Your insights as always are brilliant, and I always like our conversations. I'm hoping to you on the road at some of these other industry events. Before we close, tell me where can companies interested in TMC Innovation go if they want to learn more?

Emily Reiser (35:47):

Yeah. Awesome. It's always so fun to be with you, Rebecca. Anyone interested in learning more can go to tmc.edu/innovation and reach out to me on LinkedIn. Always happy to help shepherd people to find the right next possible milestone or partner that can help them be successful. So thanks for the opportunity and for the great conversation this morning.

Rebecca Gwilt (36:09):

Absolutely. I'll talk to you soon, Emily.

Emily Reiser (36:11):

Thanks.

Outro (36:15):

Thank you for listening to Decoding Healthcare Innovation. If you'd like the show, please subscribe, rate and review at Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to find out more about Carrie, me, or Nixon Gwilt Law, go to NixonGwiltLaw.com or click the links in the show notes.