Episode 21: Women's Health Innovation Through FemTech, With Women of Wearables Founder Marija Butkovic
The state of wearable tech, femtech, and healthtech
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In this episode you’ll discover:
How companies are innovating specifically as it relates to Women’s Health
What the landscape around funding female-led companies in the healthcare space looks like
How to market an early or growth stage company (Marija’s tips and tricks!).
Learn more from Carrie and Rebecca:
Healthcare insights (monthly email) | Telehealth/Virtual Care Mgmt Update (biweekly LinkedIn update)
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And be sure to check out our sister podcast, Legally Femtech, if you’re a femtech founder, innovator, or investor
Read the transcript:
Marija Butkovic (00:00):
Absolutely. And culturally, we have to think about cultural differences, right? Because maybe until five or 10 years ago, no one even spoke about many topics that we see in the media today, right? And if you don't speak about these topics, if you don't highlight that there are certain issues related to our health, especially issues related to female health, then no one will think that it's an actually a problem. Right.
Carrie Nixon (00:41):
Hi everyone, this is Carrie Nixon. Welcome to another episode of Decoding Healthcare Innovation. I am delighted to be joined today by Marija Butkovic. She is the founder and CEO of Women of Wearables, which is a global organization of women and allies in the health tech wearable and femme tech space. She's also a regular contributor to Forbes Media where she writes about women's health, women in health tech space and startups. Marija serves as a mentor and advisor to healthcare startups and also to accelerators. I happen to meet Marija through women of wearables several years ago, and I have been incredibly impressed both by her substantive knowledge and the energy that she brings to everything that she takes on. So I'm really excited to have her as a guest. So today we're going to focus. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah. Thank you for taking the time. And Marija is in Europe, and so I'm glad you were able to make the time zone difference work for the recording today. So today we're going to focus on three areas in particular. We'll talk about innovation specifically as it relates to women's health, and then we're going to talk a little bit about the landscape around funding female-led companies in the healthcare space. And finally, we'll shift gears a little bit to and ask Marija to share some of her tips and tricks around marketing for earlier growth stage companies. Sound good, Marija?
Marija Butkovic (02:07):
Yeah. Amazing. All amazing topics. I could speak for hours, so this was real, really be like a condensed good session which I will share by. Long for sure.
Carrie Nixon (02:19):
Well, first I want you to take a moment to tell our listeners a little bit about your background, how you decided to found Women of Wearables why you became involved in the wearable and health tech space in general. You started off as an attorney, correct?
Marija Butkovic (02:34):
Correct. You and I are actually would be colleagues if I continued with my previous vocation. So I'm a trained solicitor back in Croatia where I'm originally from, and I worked as a corporate lawyer actually for eight years before I moved to London. And I moved to London completely unexpectedly because my husband got a job. He's in IT space. So I shifted. I completely shifted my career eight years ago. I decided to jump ship and just completely change everything that I was doing. And then I was always very creative. Basically I loved writing and I wrote for some of creation startup media publications and tech journals, which I continue doing when I moved to London. And that led me to the world of startups here. And then I decided to learn more about marketing, social media, PR. I freelance for a couple of years, co-founded a wearable tech startup, which is what led me basically to start Women of Wearables.
(03:34):
Because at that time and very mind Carrie, that was eight years ago, London was very much all about FinTech, traditional industries. Banking and wearables were very early stage then most people knew about wearables, but it was all about maybe Fitbit fitness track trackers, Google glasses and things like that. First smart watches start coming up and femtech was wasn't even there. No one even knew what femtech is. And then I started Women of Wearables purely as a response to that lack of women in wearable tech space. So our focus, hence the name was wearable tech but then we expanded in too many different other industries. And mostly we are today about health tech. So we will have a lot of members and communities focusing on different areas within the health tech space and femtech is one of them. So I really wear multiple hats at the moment, but majority of my time is spent on WOW, because we've grown a lot over the past couple of years. And then I write for Forbes and I also, whenever I can, I will advise startups, mentor startups, work with different programs, supporting early stage companies as an advisor, as a mentor, I will run my marketing workshops. So I am hoping that some of that knowledge I can share today as well.
Carrie Nixon (04:58):
Absolutely. And wearables are absolutely an important component of innovation in the healthcare space. Today I want to talk a little bit more about healthcare innovation, particularly in the context of women's health. I mean, I think that most of our listeners probably realize that women's health has really taken a backseat over the years. Research around many diseases are focused usually on men as clinical trial participants as the starting point. And diseases that affect primarily women have received very little attention. So why is that, do you think?
Marija Butkovic (05:40):
That's a really good question. And every time, for example, I visit a museum just this weekend I was visiting science museum here in London with my husband and my son. And there were a lot of these 19th century, early 20th century like models of human body, which doctors used to observe and do research and VAX models. And every single one of them was a male model. And it made me think how no one even thought about, but what about women? So I think it's a very complex issue that it's not black or white. It cannot be very simply explained, but I'll try to simplify it. I think that traditionally women, even back then, there was much less women in the science space in general than men. And that's how this whole issue started. Because we have to be honest that when there are no men, when we cannot be what we cannot see, then female led innovation won't be funded.
(06:51):
Research around women won't be conducted in enough at least not enough measure in terms of how much it'll be done. Women-led startups won't thrive and things like that. So we have to look at this challenge that we have today from multiple angles. And I know we will be talking about female investors in this space because I think it's a very, very important issue that it's so connected to the whole problem of women in the tech space and lack of female-led startups. So I think a lot of these challenges that exist today, we have to exist. We have to look from top down approach, not the other way around.
Carrie Nixon (07:39):
So this is a problem with deep roots, right? I mean, we know that a couple of decades ago, women and girls were not encouraged to go into the sciences very proactively. They weren't encouraged to go into math or computer technology. And that naturally means that the research that happened was being done by men and the innovations that were being built done by men. And so it's really interesting to think of the root cause of all this as some of our education, our philosophy of education.
Marija Butkovic (08:16):
Absolutely. And culturally, we have to think about cultural differences because maybe until five or 10 years ago, no one even spoke about many topics that we see in the media today. And if you don't speak about these topics, if you don't highlight that there are certain issues related to our health, especially issues related to female health, then no one will think that it's an actually a problem. And until people start realizing it is an issue that exists, that it needs to be solved in different ways, whether it's research, whether it's more use of technology, whether it's funding and things like that, things won't progress. So we have to again, look at it from different angles and think about the whole awareness thing that came with the fem tech movement. And I think that's great, but that's the only one of the first steps towards thriving industry. But everything starts with the awareness and I'm glad that media has played its part as well in that.
Carrie Nixon (09:15):
Yeah. So you mentioned eight years ago, no one knew what femtech was which I think is very true. I feel like I am seeing a pretty distinct difference between where we were even say five years ago and where we are right now. Do you agree with that? And what is your sense of what contributed to that difference?
Marija Butkovic (09:40):
A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So much different. It's nowhere near where I would want it to be, but it's definitely much, much better. Women of Wearables was the pioneering organization when it comes to femtech in Europe. We did our first femtech event in 2017. And even back then, I know it was a couple of years later after I moved to London, but even back then when some people who spoke to me about the event, they were thinking I was organizing a FinTech event. And I tried to explain to them that femtech is something different than FinTech, but still, nevertheless, we had 150 people almost coming through the doors and there was a lot of interest for that event. And it was just before I went on my maternity leave. So we definitely, we have progressed, when I think about number of startups that have happened in the meantime when we see number of new investors coming in the space, dedicated fem tech funds, health tech funds funds that have been completely industry agnostics, but they have implemented that whole thesis of we do want to invest in women and we do want to invest in women who are innovating in the femtech space.
(10:49):
That has been tremendous progress. And I think that there has been a huge shift in the whole let's speak openly about these topics among women as well. We are more open to having these conversations to admit we are having problems to admit that we need help to admit that we are not feeling well after we give birth. That things like weak pelvic floor postnatal depression endometriosis cardiovascular issues, mental health issues women are facing are really real and that we need to start addressing those. So yes, finally things have changed and more investment definitely is going to female businesses or general in general fem tech businesses today than what was situation five years ago.
Carrie Nixon (11:44):
For Sure. Yeah, I think the term femtech is generally more accepted today. Although it was funny, probably six months ago I was interviewing an attorney for a position and I mentioned something about femtech companies and he started talking about FinTech and his experience in FinTech, and I thought, wait a minute, <laugh> a healthcare innovation law firm. I guess he was trying to go where I was going, but didn't quite get it right. So it was kind of funny. Yeah, so I think the other element of this could be that women are done being quiet about these issues. They're done being embarrassed about these kinds of issues.
(12:28):
I think it is, it can still be a cringe for a room full of men who are investors to see slides about a pelvic floor device, pelvic floor strengthening device, or and to talk about how it's inserted and that type of thing. And so your suggestion that we've got to have more female investors and founders in this space, I think is spot on. I have been really happy to see the number of venture capital firms that are specifically focusing on female founders and female founders in the healthcare space and more venture capital firms that are actually being led by women. Part of the solution has got to be more healthcare businesses that are led by women. So we've got a lot of ground to catch up to make up, I think in this space. How do you think we can do it? What are some ways that we can accelerate innovation in women's health and in fem tech over the next couple of years to try to make up some lost ground?
Marija Butkovic (13:49):
Excellent question. Excellent question. To your point and to my point from couple of minutes earlier I think that we definitely need to increase number of women in the funds and number of female angel investors that needs to change women
Carrie Nixon (14:08):
Do, and specifically in the angel realm to get them off the ground.
Marija Butkovic (14:12):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it doesn't matter if it's a small check angel investor, it's better than nothing because those angel investors are usually the first people that trust in your business. And without them, for many startups, it'll be impossible to even launch to progress with the MVP or prototype or whatever. That's one thing. And I think that another thing is it's a cycle. We have to think about funding female founders in the space in a way that if they exit their business, which I hope, I'm hopeful it'll start happening more. I think with more exits, male investors as well will start seeing the value in tech even more than it is now. Next generation of female founders that exit their businesses will become next generation of female investors. So it's one thing ties to the other. And I would also say that a narrative that I see a lot happening in the industry, which I don't particularly like, is that women need a lot of support in terms of business support.
(15:20):
They need more mentorship, they need more knowledge, they need more this, more that. I don't think that women need this more than men actually. I think that women are equally capable, if not more capable of men or male founders because research has shown that return investment when we invest in a female founder is actually better than when we invest in male founder. So I wouldn't necessarily agree with the fact that women need more of anything we do might need a bit more confidence sometimes. And that is the fact, because again, statistics has have shown that male founders will ask for more money from investors and they will appear to be more confident. But there's also a lot of conscious and unconscious biases in terms of how male investors see the pitch from a female founder versus male founder. So there's it again, it's not black or white.
(16:14):
It's a pretty complex thing. But I think that definitely it's not an easy thing to solve. But I would say that maybe a solution, in my opinion, if we really want to progress at quicker pace, at higher speed, is to maybe introduce quotas. And I would love to see that actually, because we can claim we are very diversity focused or female focused, and we can claim we do want to invest in female founders, but sometimes the only solution for the problem is to have black on white paper. We need to invest in 30%, at least of our portfolio needs to be female-led. And that's it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't not, shouldn't invest on merit, it has to always be on merit. But I'm pretty sure that that lack of diversity and in terms of pipeline is not a pipeline problem. It's a culture problem. And that's what we need to change.
Carrie Nixon (17:20):
Yeah, I think that's right. So we know that reproductive innovations and innovations around reproductive health, that's a big area in women's health fertility, et cetera but there are many, many, many other areas that encompass women's health. I, for example, am so surprised that we do not yet have a better way of diagnosing ovarian cancer. So what other areas other than reproductive health and some other areas that you Ty typically hear associated with tech would you say are sort of ripe for real traction in the next couple of years?
Marija Butkovic (18:06):
I would say definitely cardiovascular health. I think that there's a lot of interesting pieces of research out there that there's a lot of gender and racial bias when it comes to cardiovascular health that results in less than optimal experience for female patients. And I can also share some of my stories for Forbes related to this topic. To your point about cancer, I think there's a lot of interesting work at the moment when it comes to gynecological cancers, but also non gynecological cancers because breast cancer is not, for example, gynecological cancer, but it does affect mostly women. And there's has been a lot of innovation in that space. Mental health is one of those areas that hasn't been innovated much. And I think that the next generation of femtech companies is definitely on a good path to democratize access to mental health, which has traditionally be been very expensive and not easy to access for certain audiences and groups.
(19:05):
And I'm hopeful that with the use of technology patients will not only, it'll be easier for patients to access the right care for them at a cheaper price, but also to get it more regularly because it's all about how good it is for the patient. And that means that it has to be accessible, it has to be high quality. Telehealth has helped with that. And I think anything related to childcare as well, an infant, which is sits at the borderline of femtech as well, because we have come to the conclusion these days that maternal and baby health are super well connected and you cannot divide between those two, especially in those first few years after a woman gives birth. I think that baby health, baby tech space, infant nutrition will really be revolutionized in the years to come. That area hasn't been disrupted for more than 20 years as I see it.
Carrie Nixon (20:05):
Those are things to look forward to for sure. All right, so let's pivot for a moment and talk about marketing and outreach. We know that if a new company is going to get traction, they've got to get their name out there, they've got to have brand recognition. How does that happen? Especially when some of these early stage companies are operating on a very, very tight budget. I know you've got some tips and tricks on this, have elevated women of wearables over the years and you've mentored others on how to push their brands out there. So give us some of your tips.
Marija Butkovic (20:45):
Good question. Great question. I, I mean, I always try to give advice as a both female founder as a founder of a startup and as a PR person, right? Because I haven't been Forbes contributor as long as I was a female founder. So in the first few years of starting my business and my previous business as well, wearable tech space we never had any budget. I'm always being very honest about that. We never paid for any PR, we never paid for any marketing except maybe from occasional maybe a bit of paid advertising on Facebook and Instagram if the algorithm allows again but that's for a separate conversation. And I think that it's really important to understand the basics of marketing as a early stage startup founder and how to create those relationships with journalists and influencers in the industry or people who are running organizations such as ours and many other great organizations out there.
(21:40):
So you can really benefit from exposure to their audiences. And something that I'm always surprised is that how many startup founders think that PR agencies will do their job and they don't do the legwork themselves in order to establish a relationship with the journalists. And I love receiving pitches from startup founders. I prefer to receive pitches from startup founders versus PR agencies. So I always recommend people doing that. And I think it's never too early to start working on your marketing and branding. It's never too early. So you have to think about that probably even before you have an actual product because if you are really serious about your product, you will have it in maybe a few years from now, but you need to have that marketing strategy in your head. So I met a lot of interesting people that I featured in my stories through wow community.
(22:38):
Some of them have been our members as well. I love when people share their stories with me even before they pitch to me because that's how I meet them and that's how they stick in my head. And then when I'm writing a story, I will remember, oh wait, actually I met on that event or that meetup, I met this super interesting startup founder, let me reach out to them. And I had cases as well when I reached out to startup a founder because I wanted to feature them in my story and they never got get back to me. I had those cases as well. So there are actually startup founders who maybe they haven't seated or haven't seen the email, or maybe they weren't interested, but I think that getting featured in Forbes can really move the needle for your business. And we have a case, so a super successful female founder that I recently featured in one of my stories, and it was a story about her raising her, I think pre-seed round or seed round. And she said that the response from investors after that story was so overwhelming that she could raise five times more money now. So I think it, it is worth thinking what can PR and marketing do to my business? And my simple advice would always be try to establish that human relationship, that recognition or what you do, reach out to that journalist so they can have you on your radar. It's never early to do that.
Carrie Nixon (24:05):
Yeah, I mean the big lesson here is if Marija knocks on the door, you should open it and say yes.
Marija Butkovic (24:13):
Yeah, absolutely. I would be happy. I think that I'm always very, very curious. I always reach out to a lot of people. I'm always trying to be as responsive as possible. I get ton of emails, but I always try to get back to people. And even if it's not the right time now I explain why it is not or where it will be so they can follow up or reach back to me. And yeah, I mean I always very keen to hear from people in the industry, so please do reach out.
Carrie Nixon (24:43):
Well, last thing, you alluded to some of the potential difficulties with marketing that companies aimed at females may experience where we know that sometimes marketing materials are basically declined and censored from some platforms because they are deemed to be too explicit where, you know, might be featuring an image of a vagina or whatever and that's not okay. That's that I feel like is another barrier that we have to overcome.
Marija Butkovic (25:18):
Absolutely. And it doesn't even have to be that explicit. I mean we, even as organization have, I have ton of examples when we try to advertise on Instagram and Facebook and our ads were rejected and we didn't even mention any explicit words or we didn't even have any explicit imagery even for the program we are running now, femtech, which is focusing on areas that have been underfunded under research overlooked. Our ad didn't go through because Instagram and Facebook rejected it. And I don't know actually the real reason why, because again, we didn't use any explicit wording. So I can only imagine how hard it must be for maybe a sextech company if they want to advertise. And that's why you need to be very creative and think outside the box with your marketing. So I think that in that case, because you cannot rely on paid ads as much as if you could, as you could if you were building different type of product, you have to be very creative.
(26:18):
You have to establish those relationships with people who are running communities such as women, wearables and many other ones. You have to try to speak at some events where you can get visibility blogs, establishing relationships with journalists and just to get know your customers in the best possible way because word of mouth for those businesses can be everything. So to a certain extent, these problematic algorithms force set founders to be very creative and to think outside the box. But on the other hand, what really bugs me is that I don't see much change in terms of approach from these companies. They are still, fem tech companies are still stigmatized there as something that should be taboo. And that can be seen by approaches from Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn as well to a certain extent, which is such a shame because women's health really there's nothing to be ashamed of.
Carrie Nixon (27:19):
Yeah, I'm floored that the femtech untapped ads got scrubbed from Facebook and Instagram. So we have to promote them here. We will promote them it will promote it in the show notes. Marija's doing an amazing series called FemTech Untapped and we will, we'll share some links in this show notes. Well Marija, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us today. You are such a leader in this space and you have been for a long time and I appreciate it. And women founders and women investors around the world appreciate it. So thank you so much.
Marija Butkovic (27:56):
Thank you so much for inviting me and I'm very open to anyone who wants to connect. Please do reach out. I'm always very happy to connect on LinkedIn, on Twitter via email and I will share some resources with Carrie that she can share with you if anyone is interested to learn more about what we at WOW do. And if anyone wants to pitch to me for my Forbes column, please do. I would love to hear from you.
Carrie Nixon (28:19):
Awesome. Alright, thank you so much. Until next time,
Marija Butkovic (28:23):
Thank you so much.